Podcast Season 2: Episode 6 – This is the Place: Music in the Early Years

Please note that this transcript is auto-generated and therefore will contain some errors and natural pauses in conversation.

[00:00:00] DAWN: Welcome to the Creative Life Story podcast, where we explore how a creative approach to life story work can help children and young people who are in care, make sense of their past and build a brighter future. A new model for life story work is being rolled out in the northeast of England, and this podcast shares some of the latest learning and investigates how it could help improve the lives of care experienced children and young people across the country.

[00:00:32] My name is Dawn Williams and I am an associate at Blue Cabin, one of the partners on this exciting work in the region. And today we are going to hear about one of the newest Blue Cabin programmes called This is the Place. It’s led by Blue Cabin’s team of artists, working in partnership with staff from Darlington Borough Council’s Fostering and Supported Lodgings team.

[00:00:58] It’s taking place in Theatre Hullabaloo Darlington and weekly music sessions are being offered to care experienced children and the adults in their lives. absolutely delighted to welcome to our podcast studio the two artists, musicians, who are co delivering this work. Carol Bowden, who is a musician, performer and educator based in Newcastle and Katie Doherty, musician, composer, musical director based in Northumberland.

[00:01:31] A warm welcome to both of you. Thank you. Hello. Thank you. Lovely to be here. Hello, hello. Before we talk about This Is The Place, I wanted to find out a bit more about, uh, your works, because I was struggling. Do I introduce you as musicians? Do I introduce you as theatre directors? Do I introduce you as educators?

[00:01:53] And, um, so I just thought it’d be interesting to get a bit of a pen portrait from both of you about the different bits of work that you’re bringing, uh, to the thinking of This is the Place. Katie, would you like to do a bit of a pen portrait?

[00:02:10] KATIE: Oh, it’s like the how many hats can you wear? As a freelance musician, isn’t it?

[00:02:16] Yes,

[00:02:17] DAWN: exactly. The many hats of the freelancer. Tell us about your many hats.

[00:02:23] KATIE: Well, I am a singer songwriter and a performer. I have a trio, Katie Doherty and The Navigators, who I tour and record music with. Um, and then a lot of the time I’m composing music either for theatrical productions or for, um, community projects.

[00:02:42] Um, I’m also an educator. I deliver a music curriculum in a primary school in Cramlington. I teach, uh, piano and singing. Um, and I work for the wonderful Blue Cabin now as well. So, that’s, I think that’s just about it at the moment.

[00:02:59] DAWN: A woman of many hats. Thank you. Thank you. And Carol, how many hats are you going to tell us about?

[00:03:07] CAROL: The ones I can remember off the top of my head. Um, yeah, um, quite a few different things. So I work from babies, um, with my treble time music group for babies to five year olds. Um, I go into schools and work with children in schools, teaching curriculum, music curriculum, and, um, teaching ukulele. I work with, um, Young adults with um, SEND, mental health problems, and I work with adults in a choir.

[00:03:35] I’m doing performance work with adults with SEND. I’ve been, I’ve been doing some storytelling and music in um, schools as well in Northumberland. So basically, If you’re in Northum, well basically anywhere in the North East, generally is where I travel to and bring music here in any shape or form.

[00:03:56] DAWN: Thank you.

[00:03:56] What a huge toolbox is on offer for those participants of This is the place in Darlington. Katie, would you like to give us a flavour of This is the place? What happens? Who is attending the sessions? Uh, what do you bring? What’s the setup?

[00:04:19] KATIE: We meet with, well, sometimes somewhere between, um, five and seven children with their carers come along, um, and We’ve had quite a lot of very young little ones, so babes in arms.

[00:04:38] And we’ve had a couple of toddlers who join us every now and then as well, and we do some lovely music making, in my opinion. We, um, well, Carol can tell you a little bit more about how we structure the sessions because Carol is a She is just the most amazing experienced deliverer of music for that age group.

[00:05:03] Um, and I am learning constantly from Carol. Um, and she has an endless repertoire that is just brilliant for babies and, and carers. And yeah, maybe Carol could say a little bit about how the sessions are structured and what’s happening. That’d

[00:05:20] CAROL: be great. Carol. Ah, you’re too kind, thank you Katie. Um, yeah, so the structure is because we are working with babies to five year olds, that’s our age group for This is the Place.

[00:05:32] Um, so we like to keep things structured just so, as the children become more, you know, sort of like settled into the sessions they start to understand what is coming next so they’re understanding all the transitions through the session so we start with our hello song and we sing their names in the hello song so you know we’re giving them real sort of like this is who you are you’re in this place we all know your name um so we sing our hello song with their names then we go into a puppet i’ve got a load of puppets and i um yeah just bring one along to start to kind of get the session going then from there we go into our um Our little songs about the animals, because all the children get a little song bag, and in this song bag is instruments, finger puppets, scarves, and ribbon rings, so they can play with them throughout the session.

[00:06:20] So we sing about our animals, then we do like little like movement stuff, bouncing, tickles, using the scarves, we play our instruments. But what is most important actually is slap bang in the middle of all that. We have a space where we sit down with everyone and just have coffee and biscuits and a chat.

[00:06:37] And that’s really one of the very important things about this is the place, because it gives us the opportunity to sit together and become a community. We’re chatting, we’re getting to know each other. Um, the foster carers are sort of building their own little community of like people who are in the same boat as them, going through the same things, sharing.

[00:06:57] experiences. So that is really lovely. And that has really helped us as well to kind of gel the group together and get to know them. So what we’ve done half a term so far, we’re back into, after half term, we had one week half term break and then we’re back in. And it’s just, it’s becoming a lot more relaxed now.

[00:07:15] They’re used to us sort of coming in and singing at them, but they’re singing along as well. It’s lovely. Um, So yes, we have a break, and then after the break we generally do things with scarves, or I’ve got these leaves where we sing with them, um, a bit scrunchie, which is a, you know the scrunchies you have for the hair?

[00:07:32] It’s a massive one that we call All Sit Around, and we always finish with a lullaby to sort of settle the group.

[00:07:41] Will: Did you know that this show is available to listen to on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Audible, and many other platforms? Search creative life story work wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:07:55] What

[00:07:58] DAWN: I’m hearing particularly, you mentioned that the snack time, uh, being really crucial to, um, the development of that group forming, um, I was just wondering what, what else is important. I’m thinking about the adults coming into that group who might be a bit nervous about having to play with scrunchies or, or, or, or do that.

[00:08:21] And I’m, I’m wondering about what you’re seeing when the, um, as the sessions progress, what are you noticing about the adults coming into the room with the littlies as well?

[00:08:32] KATIE: I think the, I think the first session, Carol, if you’ll remember this, we had, we had a little toddler. And her carer, you could tell that she was anxious that she was going to run around and want to pick things up and want to touch everything, want to be into everything.

[00:08:49] As all toddlers, you know, are. And she was anxious that wasn’t going to be appropriate. Um, but it, that was, it was really lovely actually because, um, I think she came back the second she, she didn’t, she hasn’t been with us recently because, um, she’s moved on. But, uh, she, she came back and I think once the carer knew that she had permission to touch everything, actually, that was totally fine.

[00:09:16] Even the instruments were not, were not precious about it. And, um, she sat on both of our knees and played the ukulele at points. And, um, um, Um, actually, what she was really interested in, what her focus was, was how the mechanisms of those instruments worked. She wasn’t as interested in the little, uh, finger puppets and the, the soft toys that the other children were.

[00:09:40] She wanted to know how we were making these sounds. Um, and, and that was what was interesting to her. And as soon as the, the carer realised that that was fine, um, I think she really settled into the session. Um, And then I think the thing about the other ones, the ones that have much smaller children is obviously they’ve all got their own routines, they’ve all got different times for naps, they’ve all got different times for feeding, for nappy changes, and so they need to feel like It’s okay if they drop in and out.

[00:10:12] It’s okay if they need to feed in the session. Um, it’s okay if we don’t start the session for 15 minutes because all the babies are desperate to be fed. Um, so things like that I think are really important. I think, do you agree Carol?

[00:10:28] DAWN: I’m interested in, um, the considerations when you’re setting up that space to invite carers with very, with very little, little ones into and, um, what are the extra things that you’re putting in place to make sure that that’s a welcoming space when people, when people are coming, walking in, into the space immediately.

[00:10:52] And certainly giving permission for things to be flexible is what I’m hearing you saying, that it can be bespoke to an individual child. I think that child might be a sound engineer when they grow up, actually, if they’re interested in those sounds being made to go on as well. I was wondering as well, what are, what is it that you’re, um, What is it that by the end of the session that you hope will have happened, um, by the end of the program, what is it that you hope will have happened with those children, very young children and their carers?

[00:11:30] What are the sort of things that you hope you will be seeing as a result of them taking place in This is the Place?

[00:11:36] CAROL: That’s a good question. And you might not know, you might not know. Yeah, no, exactly. There’s, there’s, there’s a lot of like unknowns about it, but you know, one of the things we’re hoping through music, through equipping, because to be honest, a lot of these children are babies, so their responses and their engagement when the, in the session is, you know, really just more limited to their abilities, but we are trying to equip them.

[00:12:00] equip the foster carers, um, with a lot of like musical tools that they can use. So, you know, they did, some foster carers will have children passing through the houses, you know, children moving on, they get new children coming in. So they were equipping them to have some skills. Musically, to work with their children, um, you know, stuff for helping with behavior or developing language, but mostly about developing, um, relationships, bonding, and attachment.

[00:12:30] And I think deep down, that’s probably the, the, the main thing that we’re really trying to do is to, um, You know, help those children and the foster carers to develop skills of bonding and attachment that, you know, if they move on, they can find them with their next parent, carer, um, whoever, yeah, within the next adults in their lives.

[00:12:53] DAWN: And, and have the, um, have you, has anybody reported back that they’ve started doing that, like using some of your songs at home when they’re not in the This Is The Place session, or is it too early for that to have happened yet? No, it has, yeah.

[00:13:08] KATIE: Yeah, and there’s, there’s one lady in particular who now does singing before bedtime every night, she says, it’s part of her routine.

[00:13:19] So that’s wonderful.

[00:13:20] CAROL: Excellent. There’s been a couple of times actually when they’ve also suggested, Oh, we do this song with them at home. So we introduce that into the session as well. So it’s, it’s lovely. And a lot of them already do sing with their babies to a point. So I’ll kind of share in some repertoire too, which is really lovely.

[00:13:36] And for them

[00:13:36] DAWN: to be able to hear their songs in your session as well, so that you’re building that for, for the next lot who come in as well. So that’s like baton passing of songs, isn’t it? No, exactly. How lovely. Um, and. You talked, Katie, about, um, uh, you learning a lot about the structure of, um, of the sessions when you’re working with Carol, but I’m quite interested in two people co delivering a session.

[00:14:04] What’s that like? Because it’s quite different from being asked to go in and organize a session on, on your own. How do you, how do you as two artists navigate that session? Or is it, Is it an improvised space? I bet it isn’t. I bet there’s a rehearsal.

[00:14:22] KATIE: Yeah, I mean, we did, we definitely meet up and we met up and, and, and sort of shared where we were in terms of what kind of repertoire we, we have under our belts.

[00:14:34] And a lot of my repertoire is for, um, children who can move around. Um, so So, I’m sort of learning how to adapt that material to children who are less mobile and it is adaptable, so I’ve learnt that, definitely. Um, but Carol has so, so much repertoire. Um, that. And also she plays the ukulele, as we know, which is such a wonderful instrument for that age of children, because it’s so non offensive.

[00:15:05] I can play the accordion, which is actually quite offensive. It’s loud, it’s very loud. It’s loud. It’s loud. And, um, so the ukulele works much better in, in the set, in the setting that we’re in. So, but, but in terms of having two people leading, for me, I don’t think I’ve, I’ve ever led any sort of session with, with another practitioner.

[00:15:29] Um, so it, you know, it’s a privilege actually to have somebody else to be able to, to lean on. Um, and especially when you’ve got a mixture of ages in the children. You’ve got the ones who want to do slightly different things, who might want to, because we’ve got a couple who can crawl around and, you know, different things appeal to them, as do the, the, the teeny tiny ones.

[00:15:57] Um, so it’s, it’s brilliant to be able to give individual children attention. Um, that’s much more easy to do when there’s two of us. Um, Serve tea and coffee and biscuits. Very important. Remembering the order. Who wants sugar? Who doesn’t want a biscuit? All that kind of things, much easier. Um, and I think just in terms of having two people to engage with, when, when Carol’s playing the ukulele, I can do the actions.

[00:16:30] Um, and, Two voices together, I think is, is, is a lovely thing as well. Um, I can play the shaky egg every now and then when Carol’s on her ukulele. We love our shaky egg.

[00:16:47] CAROL: Yeah, let’s not forget that amazing train whistle you bring as well.

[00:16:50] KATIE: Oh, yeah, I’ve got my train whistle. Yeah

[00:16:53] CAROL: Yeah,

[00:16:58] KATIE: it’s it’s very much more enjoyable to have two practitioners for us as Artists I think because it takes the pressure off.

[00:17:06] It means that we can be more observant and reactive So yeah, it’s it’s a privilege definitely From my point of view, Carol might disagree.

[00:17:19] CAROL: Oh no, I totally agree. But also practically as well, it just means that, you know, if I was Paulie, at least they’ve got Katie, you know what I mean, and vice versa. And that’s important

[00:17:29] DAWN: in terms of a trusted adult coming into the space.

[00:17:33] It’s not a new face coming in. And, you know, I suppose. might be bringing in, you know, another musician, but at least there’s always a constant, because the relationship with you will be as important as the relationships that you’re trying to build in the group itself as well.

[00:17:51] CAROL: I think what they also witness is because this is the first time Katie and I working together.

[00:17:55] So we’re still kind of like learning as well, how to do that. Um, and. And I think that’s something that also the foster carers say that, so it’s, it’s something else that kind of breaks down that barrier of like, we’ve not come in as sort of professionals as such, we’re still kind of learning as well. Um, so I think that is really sort of, you know, beneficial for the group to, to witness us figuring each other out.

[00:18:18] Yes. Working together.

[00:18:19] DAWN: And, and two adults modeling to the carers and the, the littlies about, well, I was going to say making a fool of yourselves, having a laugh, having a sing, doing the daft actions, but you know, getting the scrunchies out, crawling under the lycra, I bet there’s lycra, crawling under the lycra or whatever it is that you’re doing as well.

[00:18:39] But that’s what I imagine that from, from the, from the, um, in terms of building a relationship. Yeah. Appreciate it. That’s really important that you’re prepared to, um, stand up and, and get the words wrong sometimes or get the actions wrong sometimes. Or in my case,

[00:18:54] CAROL: completely forget the song.

[00:18:57] KATIE: Make the words up as you go along.

[00:18:59] I mean, yeah, they’re all, they’re all skills that are. Useful to have.

[00:19:05] DAWN: Or, well, yes, but also, or responding and improvising and including some of the suggestions from, from, um, carers as well. You know, you call it making up as you go along. I would say that’s a high, high skill, improvising, songwriting on the hoof.

[00:19:21] I’m set to go on. Oh, dear, dear, dear. Um, any, um, just continuing on the, the, the, the, the, um, of you two working together as new, as artists who’ve not worked together before. Any surprises along the way of working together?

[00:19:41] KATIE: Oh, that’s a good question.

[00:19:43] DAWN: I’ve got lots of good questions. Uh,

[00:19:46] KATIE: I think it’s really hand, well, this is just another positive to it.

[00:19:50] It’s really handy to be able to sit down, have a cup of tea afterwards and debrief, because you can’t debrief with yourself. If you’ve led a session and, you know, it was different this week for whatever reason, whether that’s a positive or a negative, to be able to sit down, have a cup of tea afterwards and go.

[00:20:09] what worked, what didn’t work. Um, and what we have been doing is making a list every week of what we have, the material that we’ve, we’ve used so that we can see a pattern of, uh, what works in terms of the tone of the sessions and the, um, the shape of it. Um, and I find that really helpful. Oh, Katie,

[00:20:30] DAWN: say a bit more what you mean by the, what do you mean by the tone of a session?

[00:20:34] That’s, that’s a musical term. What do you mean by that?

[00:20:37] KATIE: Um, well, it’s just built, what Carol was saying before about the different sections, because there’s, there’s definite sections, whether they’re apparent to the, you know, To the, um, people we’re delivering to, uh, it may or may not be but, um, that’s the, the other thing about having two of us is we can, we can’t, it’s almost like when you’re on stage, you read the room, you, you feel the audience, and you adapt the set if it’s, the energy’s feeling a little bit different, so.

[00:21:09] Um, so I think we’ve got a general shape in terms of like what Carol was saying. We have, we have some welcome songs that they can always expect and then we might throw a few new ones in, but there’ll be in a particular place where it’s not, we established like a routine that we normally go through. We have the usual kind of movement, tickles.

[00:21:32] Animals, um, bouncing. And then, like Carol says, after the break, usually it’s a little bit more chilled, because we have had a couple of sessions where The babies are literally all asleep by the end. They’re all asleep. As, I mean, the carers look like they might be on their way there as well. And me and Carol would quite like to curl up on the beanbags.

[00:21:56] Oh,

[00:21:58] CAROL: what a

[00:21:58] KATIE: picture you paint.

[00:22:00] DAWN: I think that’d be called a result, wouldn’t it? If it was all the babies are asleep. It’s very

[00:22:05] KATIE: satisfying. Yeah, it is satisfying, definitely. So yeah, I think it’s just about read, reading the room and, and, um, and Carol, like I said, I keep saying how much Carol, Carol’s got so much repertoire.

[00:22:19] And the brilliant thing about it that I’m learning is, you know, sometimes we do, I mean, we quite often do songs to well known tunes. And we can go, oh yeah, that’s the one to, what’s, there’s a tune that we always use and we can never remember the name of. Don in and out, the dusty blue bells, that one dusty that comes, that comes quite a lot.

[00:22:42] But that’s nice because then the, if we forget what the tune is, like it might be fair or jaka or it might be something like that. And then we’ll go, what’s that tune? What’s that tune? And one of the cowers go, oh, it’s in and out, the dusty blue bells or something. Um, so yeah, it, the, the amount of repertoire there is is amazing.

[00:23:01] But it’s great because it’s all recognizable and. You know, the carers already know it. They’ve already got it in their back catalog somewhere.

[00:23:09] DAWN: Yeah, that’s right. What? So almost what you’re describing there is, um, you as artists, uh, building a relationship, which is mirroring what you’re doing with the group as well.

[00:23:21] So it’s the same process going on between you as artists as, as. as with the group. But I do like, I do like the, the thought and attention going to what are the, what’s the, reading the signals in the room. So whilst, um, repetition is really important, and, um, and the same routines and rituals happening, but that within that you’re able to improvise as well, to bounce things off and see where it goes.

[00:23:53] Keeps you on your toes.

[00:23:54] CAROL: Absolutely. And I think routine is one of those, you know, the massive things that we need to keep that. I mean, all the foster carers have their routines with their little ones. And then we realized quite early on that when they arrived, the little ones needed to be fed. So now what we do is they all have their feed.

[00:24:08] We have a bit of a chat then. Um, and, you know, we can get us like a feel of how, what sort of mood they’re in, how the past, you know, how they’ve been the past week, anything going on that might affect how the rest of the session might go. Um, And that really helps kind of gives us a little early insight.

[00:24:26] DAWN: I was going to say at that, at that point then is that you’re immediately having to make adaptions to the script, to the plan that you’ve got just from that initial meeting.

[00:24:35] CAROL: Yeah. Yeah. I think we do. Um, it’s not something we initially sort of converse about on the way up the stairs, but it’s something that we both intuitively think, okay, so it’s probably going to be, you know, a little bit relaxed or maybe by they’re going to fall asleep earlier or. You know, because they haven’t slept last night, or maybe one of them’s a little bit sort of, you know, creepy or whatever.

[00:24:57] So yeah, um, we do kind of get a sense of how the session might be if any of the, you know, the foster carers are particularly exhausted from a sleepless night or whatever. Then we can kind of keep it a little more gentle. when we’re upstairs and maybe get the coffee out a little earlier.

[00:25:14] DAWN: Hey! Um, you do, I want to come to one of your sessions, they just sound delightful.

[00:25:21] Um, and when, how much longer, uh, you, I think you are in your first term at the minute, how much longer are the, are the, um, weekly sessions going to continue for?

[00:25:32] KATIE: I think, I think we’re planning to continue for the whole year. Is that right, Carol? It’s a year, so it’s 12 months. It’s

[00:25:38] CAROL: December. Wow. So we, we do break through the school holidays, so they’re probably, we don’t have anything arranged for the summer yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if, if Lucy, um, pulls something out the bag from somewhere, she’ll find some money for something.

[00:25:52] But yeah, um, we are, are timetabled in until December with everyone, so that’s really fantastic.

[00:25:58] DAWN: Brilliant. So there’ll be some birthdays that need celebrating within that with them as well. There’ll be a, Anniversaries happening over that year then.

[00:26:07] KATIE: Yeah. Yeah. I suppose the thing is we just, we don’t know, you know, when, what these, what the journey of these children’s going to be, you know, when they might move on and, um, what’s been really Lovely, I, from my point of view, cause, cause a couple of them we’ve seen from literally like three, four weeks old and yeah, absolutely tiny.

[00:26:30] And just to see how quickly they’ve developed and also what Carol was saying earlier about, um, that attachment to their carers and the bond that they’re forming to see that because as a parent, I think I, you don’t see that you don’t observe it from. from an outsider’s perspective but for me seeing those children week after week and it’s so obvious actually it’s so obvious that that bond that they build and the way it happens and how it happens and you know we’ve both commented on those there’s two particular tiny little ones.

[00:27:08] Just the change in when they are alert and, um, actually really engaged in the session properly. You know, their carers are singing something and their eyes just do not move from the carers. And it’s just such a beautiful thing to be. party to, and I’ve never, I’ve never experienced that before. It’s a, it’s a wonderful thing.

[00:27:34] So yeah, it’s, it’s a lovely session.

[00:27:38] DAWN: Last thoughts, I could sit and talk all day, um, and I’ll definitely have to come and visit your project. Um, last thoughts, um, from both of you on, um, a hope for This is the Place. What do you hope? So if it’s, you know, in, we’ve come to the end of your project, what is your hope for This is the Place?

[00:27:58] CAROL: That it continues, you know, that it shows, it’s already showing how it works. Um, you know, we are seeing these children really attaching to their foster carers where, you know, hearing stories about how they’re using music at home, as well as watching them singing with their little ones with us. Um, and, and, you know, that it kind of like rolls on and keeps going and that, you know, As children move on, the foster carers keep returning with their, the little ones in their care.

[00:28:25] DAWN: And Katie, what would your hope be for This is the Place?

[00:28:28] KATIE: I mean the same really, I think any sort of um, Music making opportunity for children, you know, there’s not enough, there isn’t enough happening. Um, and it is so, so, so valuable in ways that, you know, we’re not, even ways that we’re not aware of. So yeah, I think that it carries on and that the little ones that we’ve got now and the carers themselves feel empowered to be able to make music.

[00:28:59] Um. in their everyday lives and with the children that are going to come to them in the future.

[00:29:04] DAWN: Katie and Carol, thank you so much for your time today telling us about, uh, the most beautiful, uh, It feels like a nest that you’ve created that you’re inviting all these carers and littlings into to, to make their music.

[00:29:20] Thank you for coming and telling us about that. Um, I’d love to come back nearer the, maybe near the end of your project and, and hear from maybe some of the carers as well about what you’ve been doing there. That will be lovely to hear the end of the story, cause this is quite the beginning of the story.

[00:29:38] So thank you so much for your time this afternoon. It’s been fantastic to talk to you.

[00:29:43] KATIE: Thank

[00:29:43] DAWN: you. Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you, Dawn.

[00:29:50] Whether you’re a foster carer, someone who has experience of the care system, or you work with children and young people, we hope this episode has given you an insight into how we could make Life Story work better for young people. You can find out more about our show at wearebluecabin. com. forward slash podcast, and we’d love to hear your thoughts.

[00:30:12] You can record and send a direct question or message to the show via the website, or you could tweet us at we are blue cabin. If you’d like to listen to future episodes, remember to subscribe wherever it is you usually get your podcasts. And if you’re using Apple podcasts, please do leave us a review as it really helps others to find our show.

[00:30:35] Bye for now.

[00:30:39] Will: This is the place. is funded by Darlington Borough Council, Creative Darlington, Youth Music and County Durham Community Foundation.