Podcast Season 2: Episode 8 – unlocking creative potential in prisons

Please note that this transcript is auto-generated and therefore will contain some errors and natural pauses in conversation.

[00:00:00] DAWN: Welcome to the Creative Life Story Work podcast, where we explore how a creative approach to life story work can help children and young people who are in care, make sense of their past and build a brighter future. A new model for life story work is being rolled out in the northeast of England and this podcast shares the latest learning and investigates how it could help improve the lives of care experienced children and young people across the country.

[00:00:32] My name is Dawn Williams and I am an associate at Blue Cabin, one of the partners on this exciting work in the region. Today we are going to explore the partnership between Blue Cabin and another charity called Knee Pax. Knee Pax is a charity who support people who’ve been affected by the criminal justice system, so that could be families, young people, and others.

[00:00:54] and children. Blue Cabin and Knee Packs have secured funding from the National Lottery Reaching Communities Fund for a three year project called Creative Aid. It’s a co creation project with care experienced young men in Dearbolt Prison, supporting the young men to be recognised as artists. And I’m absolutely delighted to welcome to our podcast studio two guests who are at the heart of steering this fantastic project.

[00:01:24] Sarah from Knee Packs is the creative aid project worker and Nick Golightly, a graphic designer, is the artist in residence for creative aid. Hello and welcome to our Blue Cabin podcast. It’s so lovely to have you both here today. Hi Darl. Hello. Hello. Um, Sarah, I wondered whether you would just like to paint a bit of a picture about NEPAX and the team that you’re working in and what it involves.

[00:02:00] What’s the sort of work that you get involved in?

[00:02:02] SARAH: I’ll start with NEPAX as a whole first. Um, NEPAX have projects that run, um, the full breadth of the criminal justice journey. So we work with people from the courts, Um, when they’re first going to the courts and they’re sentenced right through to release.

[00:02:17] Um, and in Deerport we’ve got a really well established Care Leavers team. Um, there’s myself and Gil Kirkby who set up the original Care Leavers project. She’s been there a while now. Um, so, um, And there’s lots of things that we get involved with as far as care leavers are concerned. Um, we’ve just finished a project that was based on resettlement.

[00:02:38] Um, so we were supporting care leavers pre release and then into the community, um, for 12 weeks to try and help them to settle successfully and, and have a good support network around them. Um, but the work that Gail does can be anything. Um, so thank you. Supporting them through their journey, making sure that their young person’s advisors are in contact and they’re getting everything that, um, they require from them, just any day to day support that they require.

[00:03:03] She’s that go to person for them. So a huge

[00:03:07] DAWN: range of opportunities to think about partnership working with different organizations. So you are part of the care leaving team, but you’re, You’re seconded or this is like your special area of work is creative aid now, is that right? I’m

[00:03:23] SARAH: just all for creative aid at the moment.

[00:03:25] Yeah, I originally started out as family support, um, which interestingly enough was seeing the other side of the care system. I was working with men whose children were going into care, supporting them through care proceedings and helping them to maintain postbox contact with children who’d already been adopted.

[00:03:41] So I kind of saw the other side of it and now I’ve come over to this side. So it’s really interesting.

[00:03:46] DAWN: Fantastic. What a fantastic wealth of experience to be bringing, um, to work alongside Blue Cabin. Uh, Nick, I said in my introduction, I didn’t quite get it right. I said that we were at the beginning of the Creative Aid project, but actually if we thought about it in terms of working in partnership with Knee Packs, we’re actually.

[00:04:08] two years down the line and some activity has already taken place that you were involved in. I wondered if you wanted to say a bit about that, what happened and how that is being used to inform

[00:04:21] NIC: creative aid. Yeah. So I was initially invited to work with Blue Cabin and Knee Packs to explore, um, the thoughts of, um, the lads in Dearborn Prison who were care experienced, um, to do a creative consultation.

[00:04:39] So it was very much about kind of asking questions of what they thought creativity was, what their experience of creativity was, um, what they would like to do, who they would like to work with, and kind of just a massive question really of what could they say to Um, as Blue Cabin do, it was very much honouring the voices of the people who will be at the core of this.

[00:05:03] Um, so I, uh, designed, um, a pack called A Creative Aid. Um, inspired by a vintage, uh, first aid box that I have in my house that I’ve had a long time. Um, and it was, I called it a creative aid because it was a first aid kit for the creative soul. So the idea was in there, it wasn’t a consultation. You didn’t just get a piece of paper that was a black and white kind of ticks box exercise.

[00:05:29] It was about asking questions in a very different way. And it gave, uh, the lads in Dearbolt. Um, I think we made 15 of them, and all of them, um, got to do different creative activities within that pack. But also answer questions, and help us kind of shape something, that then became an application for funding.

[00:05:50] And now, in, in it’s, it’s kind of, it’s not, it’s in it’s beginnings, it’s not even in it’s final iteration, but. you know, has then produced really creative aid as we see it today. Quite a different place that we started it. It was, I was supposed to be going into Dearbolt to go and work with, um, prisoners on the wings and do the creative aid with them.

[00:06:13] Um, but of course lockdown happened, so we’re in a very different place now to what we were then. Yeah.

[00:06:19] DAWN: In terms of thinking about, um, Blue Cabin and NEPAC and the young men in Deerbolt Prison working together. Uh, immediately you can see, uh, that their voices have shaped the application that was made to the National Lottery in terms of what, what would be happening.

[00:06:39] Um, and that’s taken, you know, So that’s over two years that that’s taken to come to this fruition. So I’m just thinking in terms of working together as two organizations, that very, very long lead in time, working out how, how we can work together. Um, Sarah, I’m, I’m wondering if we think of that at, at, At the worker level between yourself and Nick, how did you begin to navigate how you would work together as two workers from two different organizations to deliver the work in Dearborn?

[00:07:11] SARAH: I didn’t know Nick back when she was starting the whole creative aid kit and I was on a different project. So I’ve been starting from scratch with Nick and Blue Cabin, but I think we’ve just really had time to focus on our working relationship. We’ve, um, I think that was the starting point for it. And I think it’s served us well.

[00:07:29] We’ve kind of got to know each other and that it’s been a slow start, you know, and things aren’t up and running, but, um, I think that’s been kind of the focus. for now, um, and kind of just learning about each other and how we work, um, and how Blue Cabin works as well, because that was all new to me. Um, so just kind of, I think we’ve been teaching each other about what we do, haven’t we?

[00:07:51] And make sure we’ve got a good solid foundation.

[00:07:55] DAWN: And so how does that feel, Sarah? Um, that’s for being thrust into that new position. Then have you, has Nick had you doing some, any of the joining in with any of the creative activities? How’s that? Not yet, but I’m sure that’s to come.

[00:08:08] NIC: Oh, that’s a lie. That’s a lie, Donna.

[00:08:11] That’s a lie. Cause we were making facts the other week and I was like, there’s the label maker. Go on, Sarah. You made the label. I didn’t

[00:08:17] SARAH: enjoy that. That was a lot harder than I thought it was. I’ve always wanted to get my hands on a label maker and I was not impressed.

[00:08:26] DAWN: Living and learning on the project.

[00:08:28] Fantastic. Oh dear. Nick, do you have any, um, other thoughts or wonderings about, um, beginning to make those relationships with the people who you’re going to be working with, um, like Sarah and the rest of the NEPAX team as well, before you even get into the prison, what sorts of considerations had to be in place?

[00:08:51] NIC: Well, it’s quite a new environment. It’s a massive sort of step change, um, and I think Sarah’s been amazing in terms of guiding me through that. You know, just coming to a different environment like a prison, just walking up to the, and this is, you know, me as a visitor just coming and visiting and leaving at the end of the day, but coming up to those, that huge building, um, driving over to Barnard Castle.

[00:09:16] to be greeted with this huge building, security checks, it being quite a serious environment, seemingly quite a serious environment straight away. Am I doing everything right? Have I got the right, have I got the right stuff in my bag? Have I left the right stuff out of my bag? Um, and that kind of sort of, what is, what is this?

[00:09:33] We, we open doors and lock them behind us every Hundred yards if that. Um, the toilets are all locked up. Sarah has to stand outside and wait for me to go to the loo and lock it again. Um, you know, there’s, there’s the regime, the movement around the prison. There’s things we can and can’t take in the prison.

[00:09:53] There’s sort of, um, lots of different rules and regulations, um, and. And I think it proves in the kind of however many page risk assessment that I’ve done for Blue Cabin just how much we need to consider for just Sarah and I to work together. This is before we’ve even had the lads in a group setting. Um, but how we access the prison, what we do.

[00:10:15] materials artists who we might invite to come and work with us might also then bring. So we’re sort of setting the standard at the moment and we’re both both learning how to work together but also how to be in that space, which is alien. It’s, it’s, it’s very peculiar. Um, but to have my guide as Sarah is amazing because like you said to me, Sarah, no question is a silly question because You need to know all of that information.

[00:10:41] You’d rather ask

[00:10:41] SARAH: the question and, and, you know, then make that mistake, wouldn’t you? And end up in a whole host of trouble. Yeah.

[00:10:48] NIC: So, so at the moment, um, I’m awaiting my proper security clearance. So I can’t yet go back into the day vault. So we’ve begun sort of recruiting the lads who we’re going to be working with.

[00:11:01] Um, but there’s lots of different things that are out of our control. So lockdowns within the prison, um, if something happens on a wing, we then can’t access it. It’s the, the lads who we’re working with. So it’s, yes, having done all about me work with care, experiencing people for quite a few years. Now, this is a whole new bit of learning, really.

[00:11:21] DAWN: Fantastic that, um, you can see how that navigating the working together has to start at all parts from organisations through to the workers before, as you said, you even get to meet any of those young men. Um, Sarah, is there anything, what are the sorts of things that need to be in place from knee packs, uh, from, from your end, before an artist or an evaluator, um, because I know there’s plans for evaluators to go in as well later on in the project.

[00:11:55] What sorts of things need to be in place? What are the systems that you’re having to navigate in order to facilitate Nick even walking through that door? As

[00:12:04] SARAH: far as visitors, um, For them to just come in for, for one session or two sessions, um, we can put in a visitor’s pass and that’s fairly straightforward.

[00:12:12] But if they’re coming in for regular sessions, they’ve got to have a full security clearance check, which needs to be sent off ID and all their backgrounds checked. Um, if we then bring in lads into that situation, um, and then we’re doing group work, um, there needs to be checks that they can be in the same room together.

[00:12:30] Um, and that. They can come at that particular time, they might have work, they might have other commitments. So it’s kind of, we have to make sure that all of that can come into place. Um, activities deal with that for us. Um, and there’s also bringing things in if, if we need equipment for a session. Um, that all needs to be checked by security.

[00:12:49] And we need to make sure we’re not bringing anything in that, that we can’t have, um, that could be used for anything else. So there’s, there’s lots to think about, um, especially for actual session to take place. It’s, um, there’s a whole host of things that need to be ticked off first. So there’s quite a lot.

[00:13:05] DAWN: And Nick, in terms, you mentioned that you’ve been doing the all about me sessions. for a number of years. What are the sort of adaptations that you’re having to make just to your practice, even in terms of, I’m guessing, planning that event? So we’ve heard about what kit you might want to be bringing in.

[00:13:24] What’s, what have been some of the surprises that have, You, you can, oh, I hadn’t thought about that, that, um, through Sarah’s guidance, you’ve had to rethink or, or, or jettison even, I’m, I’m guessing.

[00:13:39] NIC: Well, as a graphic designer, I’m quite tech heavy on, you know, utilizing Photoshop in design and working on my computer.

[00:13:46] Now, ordinarily in all about me sessions, I wouldn’t use my computer. I do like quite low fi, low tech kind of, um, sort of the fundamentals of design in some respects, um, using shape and colour and space. And so I’m doing bookmaking and things like that. But to not be able to, in the first instance, be able to take my laptop into Dearbolt, and have access to the internet and be able to, for Sarah and I to sit together and plan together, that’s a limitation in the first instance.

[00:14:18] Um, how much we rely, how much I rely on visuals on my phone. So, you know, curating ideas, Putting things together, how much that is sort of like integral to sometimes me telling stories. And what I’m having to do is think, which is quite refreshing in many respects, is be really paper based. So that makes sure that I do still have an old school paper diary.

[00:14:41] Stick into that. I know Dawn, you’re a lover of a paper diary as well, but I was

[00:14:45] DAWN: about to say how satisfying

[00:14:50] NIC: I’m Sarah. We’re in good company. Actually, we’re like the station here. See ya But that kind of thing Peeling things back and thinking what is really necessary in that space. You can’t just pull a bag out of the studio and think, right, everything’s in it.

[00:15:05] It’s like, right, what do we really need? What’s crucial and what items within this could potentially be, you know, like the magpies that are potentially, uh, um, A weapon maker in the prison, what could they see within that they could utilize that could cause harm to them or to others. And it’s not always obvious things either, so, you know, me and Sarah have put together a, uh, a how to guide of how to work in the, in Day Bolt Prison.

[00:15:33] And in that, there’s things like, you know, Your drinking flask can’t be an insulated bottle because that’s metal that’s been taken in that could be utilised. Um, pens that we’ve got all need to be plastic so there’s no bits of metal on them. Sketchbooks need to not be wiro bound. Really simple kind of basic things that actually are really important because they could pose a danger and we don’t want to bring that temptation into the prison.

[00:15:59] So it’s protecting the lads against themselves. And I think I should probably point out, when we say lads, we are talking about the prisoners within Diabolt, but we make a distinction that they are lads. We’re not talking about them as prisoners. Yeah. Do you want to explain a bit of that, Sarah? Because there’s a reason for calling them lads, isn’t there?

[00:16:17] Yeah, I guess it’s just

[00:16:19] SARAH: not

[00:16:19] NIC: to label them.

[00:16:19] SARAH: Um, I, I just, I just say, I don’t even think about it. So I’m pleased you brought that up, but I guess it just takes that label away from them. Um, you know, and it just, it just brings them back to the fact that they are just lads. They’re just, you know, we have the same, um, you know, in, in the other prisons as well, you’ve got, you call them the men in, in Durham and Home House.

[00:16:37] So it’s just, just a way of just making it a bit more human, I think.

[00:16:45] DAWN: A whole other set of considerations to take than when thinking about language and information that’s, that’s shared. Um, Nick, I was just, you just prompted me to, to ask there, ’cause I was just thinking again, back to the. all about me sessions where you’re building a relationship with a child and their carer, but here in a very, very different environment.

[00:17:11] And I know one of the things that we use a lot is uh, a model, like the three P’s. So the personal, the professional, and the private, and what information you share about yourself in order to make a relationship. And I was wondering that must have shifted radically as well in terms of what you, what you can share in, in Dearbolt that will be different to you being in a session, uh, in another sort of a session for Blue Cabin.

[00:17:44] NIC: It’s certainly something that I’ve brought to the table in terms of our team away days for Blue Cabin. I’ve spoken to also fellow artists who are, um, based in Teesside, like myself, who have, um, experience of working in prisons. I’ve talked quite extensively to Sarah about it and I think I always talk in training and things that when we’re doing it around social pedagogy, I always talk about the three P’s being changeable so that whatever scenario you’re going in prior to going into that space, I might even write down what I am willing to share and not to share.

[00:18:17] And I think in the prison setting, it feels even more important, you know, that, um, We go, and we share, and we are advocates for the work that we’re doing, and that we’re humans, and we say who we are, and what we represent. We’re not a closed book, but there is also a consideration of keeping our families safe, keeping our own welfare, you know, considering our own welfare, and also thinking about, you know, the journey that we’re doing to wherever we’re working, that we don’t become a target.

[00:18:47] And thinking about it really seriously, you know, it is a lovely project. We are having a wonderful time, like, planning and preparing for it, but there’s such a serious side of it, because we need to consider and talk about all those things. Um, I would certainly share, you know, who I am as an individual. Um, you know, that I have, you know, a wife and children, but I probably wouldn’t go to a further extent and use, utilize their names.

[00:19:15] I wouldn’t say exactly where I live. Um, but also like Sarah was saying about them being humans, we are people in that space. We’re not the authority giving the prison sentence to those lads. This is about well being and it’s about raising their aspirations and they deserve to have a quality experience.

[00:19:36] They’re already serving their prison sentence. Um, so I think that’s also in the mix as well. But blue cabin supervision has been Brilliant in terms of kind of getting my head around that. Um, my supervisor, um, was talking just the other week. Um, just with me and her, we were talking about the idea of stepping into a space as a professional.

[00:19:57] And what we consider in an empathetic, empathetic way is what was, what led someone to be in that space? What led someone to, to come to where they are today? and that’s not how we’re doing. It’s just been really kind of black and white and thinking that might be because of the care system that they’ve been in because of the potentially the gangs that they’ve been associated with or outside influences and actually that’s out of our control so who we are is just two people in that space and I think that’s quite a good way of thinking about it you know.

[00:20:30] SARAH: Sarah

[00:20:30] NIC: does that

[00:20:31] SARAH: does

[00:20:31] NIC: that chime

[00:20:31] SARAH: with you? Yeah definitely yeah and I think it’s like Nick says I, I’m I am, you know, I will share things with them and I think it’s just, it’s just to bear in mind not to share identifiable details, you know. I’m, I’ll happily talk about things, if it helps them, if it’s beneficial, um, but just to kind of just keep that level where I’m not giving them too much because we’re the best one in the world, you know.

[00:20:57] For every hundred that wouldn’t use that information for any particular reason, there could always be one potentially, so it’s just to, just to cover your back, but I totally agree with Nick, you need to kind of bring that human side into it, and it’s difficult when you’re expecting somebody to open up and tell you their life story.

[00:21:16] If you’re not giving anything back at all, so it’s, it’s just about treading that, that line. Um, yeah, kind of giving a little bit, but not too much. And

[00:21:24] NIC: also a question, and I suppose why you’re sharing it, aren’t you? You’ve got to think why you need to impart that information on someone. Yeah.

[00:21:33] DAWN: And is that to do with making a healthy relationship with that person or is that something that you’re doing for another reason as well?

[00:21:41] Which is why I think those the three P’s is boundaries are really good. Um, self checks, like why am I sharing this? And it’s always has to be about making that relationship with the young person.

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[00:22:10] DAWN: So, well, to both of you really, um, I know what you’re, you haven’t, right, very, very at the beginning, but do you have any notions of what will be delivered when you get to start this project? Have you any idea of what some of the things are that you’ll be doing, or is it too early, or is it embargoed? Oh,

[00:22:34] NIC: I don’t think it’s embargoed.

[00:22:36] I don’t think it’s that serious, is it, Sarah?

[00:22:37] SARAH: No, no. I just desire. Just as I started it, the few lads that we’ve already spoken to who we’ve got on board and they’re really keen to get started, they’ve got such a, a different, there’s just such a breadth of interests, um, with those. We’ve got some that are interested in music, we’ve got some lads who are really into painting and drawing, um, I spoke to one last week who would really like to give some poetry a go, um, and there’s been a couple actually who’ve said, which I think is really lovely, that they know they’re creative, but they just don’t know how, um, and they’re really interested in exploring, so I think we’ll have a lovely mix.

[00:23:15] DAWN: How fantastic. Uh, Nick, are you able to give us a flavour of some of the things

[00:23:22] NIC: that you’re planning? What we’ve got in the schedule, um, is a chunk of time, so about six weeks. Which are aligned with the usual kind of framework of All About Me. So we’ll think, but this is going to be different because, um, a care leaver within the prison system, um, or someone who’s care experienced isn’t necessarily like someone outside of the prison system.

[00:23:47] So you could have a young lad who’s been in prison since he was, um, in like juvenile, what would you call it, Sarah? A juvenile detention.

[00:23:57] SARAH: Yeah, yeah.

[00:23:59] NIC: Yeah, so they’ve been in the care of the government for quite a while, so therefore they are labelled as care experience.

[00:24:07] So there’s going to be lots of different stories. So there’s a reshaping of that really in terms of what All About Me looks like. And that aligns with some work that I’m doing with one of the other associate artists with Blue Cabin, Ruth Johnson. And we’re looking at what, um, All About Me looks like for care leavers.

[00:24:23] So all of these ducks are sort of, you know, getting our ducks in a row. Falling into a row. Indeed, it’s almost like we planned it, um, and, um, thinking about rather than it being called all about me, being called all about, about all about us, and it’s about group work, and it’s about thinking about, um, empowering them to think about what they are and what they’re experiencing.

[00:24:44] So we’re going to be talking about, um, what they’re experiencing now, who they are in the world, um, raising their aspirations, what the tricky points are, and what they’re having to deal with, but also thinking about, like all about me, um, their feelings, um, what they would like to do in the future, um, their likes and dislikes, so really thinking about self as well, but in the context of the group.

[00:25:08] So we’re going to establish a studio, um, each year we’ll work with a different group, so we’ll have a different. six to eight young men. Um, so this first one is our guinea pig group, um, but it will be up to them. Yeah, they’re co producing this along with us. So initially we’re, we’re establishing the studio really.

[00:25:28] And then from there we’ll work with, the plan is to work with an associate artist from within Blue Cabin. And the lads will get a choice of who they work with and what they want to do. And then there’s also, we’ll share the budget. We’ll be really transparent in terms of what we can afford and what can happen.

[00:25:44] And then we’ll look at inviting potentially another organization. So we’re just building on it very steadily. Um, but initially it’s really about them and about them working with me and Sarah and really establishing that as a strong group where they feel really safe.

[00:25:58] DAWN: And so exciting as well that it is over three years, so you’ll get a chance.

[00:26:03] So it really is a chance to test things out with this first cohort and review it, reflect, and make changes with those young lads in the, in the prison as well. That’s, that’s, that’s it. really, really exciting, um, vision that you’re painting there. And, and so, so lovely to see that it’s the time that it’s taken to get to this point and how that’s paying off now, you know, and all the other strands of associate artist work on different bits of Blue Cabin, layering and layering and layering to make it a really strong, safe project with The addition of Sarah from Knee Packs in there, bringing another layer of expertise in there.

[00:26:49] It feels very, um, like a very safe nest that you’re building in there to test things out. Um, just to. I could talk chat on all day. Um, just to, to conclude our conversation, um, I wondered, well, to both of you, but maybe it’s to Sarah first. Um, I’d love to come back and find out this time next year, what’s happened, catch up, and then maybe it’s one at the end as well.

[00:27:17] Um, but if we were thinking ahead. you know, for the next, for the next 12 months, if you closed your eyes and everything had worked out that you wanted to work out, what do you hope would have happened? What, what will have happened? What would you have seen? What might you hear from the young lads in the prison?

[00:27:34] What, what, what are your dreams for creative aid? My dreams.

[00:27:37] SARAH: I think, um, first and foremost, I just, I really hope we can give them a therapeutic outlet by being creative. I hope, I hope it brings a lot of peace for them and just that’s something extra to fill their time and kind of get their thoughts out.

[00:27:52] And I think for me, It’s, it’s, I was talking to Nick about this, when, when I’m going out and seeing the lads and I’m discussing the project, it’s a tricky one, because obviously they’re co producing, so I can’t tell them the exact direction it’s going in and they’re a little bit, they’re untrusting anyway, which is understandable, but I just hope this time next year that there’s something visible in the prison that the other lads can see and that there’s, I’m not necessarily having to go and find people to be involved at, I hope that, you know, they’ve already heard of it or they’ve seen something and they actually ask to be involved.

[00:28:24] That would be really lovely if I don’t actually have to go and find people if they just ask. They’re finding you. Yeah, that

[00:28:31] DAWN: would be nice. Lovely. Thank you. And Nick, similar question. What, what, what, what do you hope will have happened?

[00:28:39] NIC: Um, I hope that, I suppose it aligns with what Sarah’s saying there, that we’ve worked with a group of lads, but also what we’ve done has.

[00:28:47] had a trickle down effect and we’ve showcased something with the wider Um, uh, prison, um, with the right, wide, wide, wide population of the prison, I should I say. And that we’ve worked with not just the lads, but also that they’ve been able to work with their families, um, on visiting days potentially. That there’s been a further reach would be amazing.

[00:29:10] Um, but also even that small journeys have taken place. So we’re talking about some of the lads who are in Dearbolt at the moment who don’t want to leave their cells, who don’t want to leave their wings, who don’t want to engage with prison life, and actually some of them are going to be there quite a long time.

[00:29:26] And that’s really quite unhealthy for them, as human beings, to be just locked down, isn’t it, for years and years of pong. So I hope that even the small steps that we make, that they come and they engage with what we’re doing, with other prisoners who are mentors and who are what are called enhanced prisoners, and that actually they become their own network in a really positive way, um, and as role models to each other.

[00:29:53] Um, but it also terrifies me slightly thinking about what it might be. Because it’s You know, we’re trusting the process as well. Which is great and amazing. But also we’ve got to, yeah, we’ve got to ride that wave, haven’t we Sarah?

[00:30:08] SARAH: Yeah, I think we’re pretty good at being flexible and adaptable. I think we’ve proved that.

[00:30:15] We’ll just go with it.

[00:30:17] DAWN: Fantastic. What a team. Thank you very much for your time this afternoon. It’s been So lovely to hear about, um, the detailed levels of preparation that are going into you working out how to work together. Um, and really exciting to have heard about right at the very beginning of creative aid.

[00:30:37] So thank you very much for your time and conversation today.

[00:30:46] Whether you’re a foster carer. Someone who has experience of the care system, or you work with children and young people, we hope this episode has given you an insight into how we could make life story work better for young people. You can find out more about our show at wearebluecabin. com forward slash podcast, and we’d really love to hear your thoughts.

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[00:31:30] Bye for now.

[00:31:36] Will: The theme music on this show is by Madofan, sourced from Pixabay and used under license. You’ve been listening to an Anya Media production for Blue Cabin. Find out more at anyamedia. net forward slash podcasts.